Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): All right, everyone. Welcome back to the queer See Me podcast. I am super excited to have someone on today who's resources. I actually recommend fairly often to my patients and Renée. Would you like to introduce yourself?
Renée Yoxon: Hi, my name is Renée. Yoxon. I'm a gender affirming voice teacher from Montreal Canada.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Amazing and What are your pronouns?
Renée Yoxon: My pronouns are they them?
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Awesome, also. Podcasts listeners for all of you who are listening to audio in cannot see the video which if you want to pop over to YouTube, you can watch our fabulous faces and I'm not sure that I've notified everyone that I did change the spelling of my pronouns. This happened a while ago, but I do spell them thg mme. So that is the notes for you listeners. And okay Renée. I also love to ask our guest and how they identify if they feel open to sharing that just because we do really try to focus on raising up voices with lived experience here and I like to have our audience know the distinction between those things.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Fabulous, and so I feel like right before we start recording asked Renée if they also spoke French and they do and now I'm like my brain is racing about. Pronouns and gendered language in Romance languages because I have so little experience and…
Renée Yoxon: It's been.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): exposure to that. This is totally unrelated to any of the questions.
Renée Yoxon: Okay.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I told you I'd ask you so if you don't want to do this, we don't have to but do you have a brief primer on how gender-neutral pronouns are handled and Not maybe all romance languages, but the one you speak.
Renée Yoxon: it is complicated in French specifically because not only do you have to think about the pronoun of the person but you also have to think about how things relate to the pronoun. So if you're talking about someone who's sings in French the word is Shantae or Shanta or in shelters, so there isn't a neutral word for or in and there isn't a neutral word for the end of Shantae. So sometimes in radical transfaces, you'll see it written as Own shelter Rose, where we combine the endings?
Renée Yoxon: The pronoun people tend to use is yell which is a common accommodation of being so it's iel and I love that but most of the time when we're trying to speak in neutral French rather than creating new things like Shawn the horse you would figure out a way to say it without the new word. So you say in person he shot a person who sings which is totally normal French, but it doesn't gender the person you're speaking about any particular way and I'm learning Spanish right now too and I actually find speaking in neutral Spanish a lot easier than speaking in neutral French because the endings naturally they lend themselves to be neutrally gendered. So instead of a at the end you could end with an E. For instance.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah. Yeah, I've seen that and change in Spanish previously, but I haven't seen it how it's tackled in French. So thank you for that completely unrelated to…
Renée Yoxon: No problem.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): why we're here primer. I really appreciate it. I've been thinking about it a lot because I am traveling and
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I'm really lucky in delighted by the community I have and in Seattle where I live because I get to spend all of my career with Trends and queer people and then all of my personal Community as well. And so I am seeing
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): All of the time and I don't have a ton of interactions in my daily life where I'm not seen and then when I travel I immediately and not seeing you and every interaction I have…
Renée Yoxon: Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): it's so rare for people not to assume. It's a Christian or heterosexual identities and across my body. and then I'm traveling in places where lots of other languages are spoken and so I like oftentimes when I'm trying to communicate with people it's like I'm communicating into a language that I don't speak and I don't know anything about and so then I feel even have more complex feelings about trying to ask to be seen. Thank you for sharing. Okay. why we're actually here…
Renée Yoxon: No problem. Thank you.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): though is and Renée has and I'm gonna tell people a little bit about what I know about…
Renée Yoxon: Sorry.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): what you have and you can fill in all the things I messed up but Renée has an online program for vocal transition And so on the queer DOC website, which is the clinical site of our work and I have a list of resources for vocal transition and I like clinicians. I very frequently screen share that page with my patients during our visit and then click to everyone's different programs. because there's a few different options up there, but I was literally on your website with a patient yesterday. And yeah,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): so, Renée has a few different programs for different ways to change the voice and with a kind of different vocal expression goals. And my understanding of what it is is online coursework. That's kind of asynchronous. Someone can do it on their own time, but then they also get access to office hours with you and…
Renée Yoxon: That's right.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): supportive group of community. I'm assuming other people doing the program or who have done the program.
Renée Yoxon: Yes, exactly. You're right.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): that's great. I'm glad I've been representing it correctly to my patient.
Renée Yoxon: Yeah, you nailed it. you want me to tell you a little bit about the courses I have available.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Go. Yes.
Renée Yoxon: So I have two major online courses that I usually recommend so mindful voice feminization which is obviously geared towards people who are interested in feminizing their voice. So that would be trans feminine people but not exclusively and another course called masculinize your voice without testosterone which is geared towards men trans masks people who are pretty or no tea or not sure if they want to take tea or have access to tea to work on masculinizing their voice without testosterone and I have another course called trans vocal exploration, which I'm sort of phasing out at the moment because it was just like the first course I made and I don't feel like it's representative of my strongest work anymore. But a lot of people have been helped by that course over the years now,
Renée Yoxon: Out of a training program. So I'm training other voice teachers like me to learn to teach trans voice alteration and I have plans in the works for future courses that don't exist yet because I know that my offerings don't cater to everybody yet. And I would love to make a course that helps people who are taking testosterone to adapt to their new voice because that's a request I get all the time. And also I'd love to make a course for non-binary people that really speaks to the modulation of The Voice without the use of the words feminine and masculine or maybe looks at more esoteric ways of speaking and really breaks the binary in terms of trans voice alteration.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, and I also should have prepared you for this part of this conversation.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Remember that we can edit anything that we went to after this.
Renée Yoxon: You're no problem.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): And it is one of the kind of like Hills I like. Will die on in my career with clinicians, which you come from a different background you come from a singing background, right?
Renée Yoxon: That's right. Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Which I have 7,000 questions about that and that will do in a minute. and right I actually literally sent out this email. I'm on Alyssa with about a thousand clinicians doing gender for my Healthcare. And it comes up all the time where we use terms feminizing and people talk about masculinizing hormone therapy and feminizing hormone therapy and facial feminization surgery and chess masculinization surgery and particularly for medically trained clinicians. This is a huge pet peeve of mine and it's not objective clinical language and we are objective clinical practitioners and
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): So like masculizing and feminizing our heuristic terms that mean different things to different people and as you kind of reference also exclude a lot of people so a lot of my patients who take estrogen don't identify as feminine,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): right or a lot of my patients who take testosterone don't identify as masculine. And a lot of my patients who take estrogen identify as non-binary, right? And so when clinicians come to me and…
Renée Yoxon: Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): are I want to talk about non-binary treatments. I'm like, what medicines do you actually want to talk about? Let's get objective in clinic.
Renée Yoxon: Yes.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): and so I do have a big. Push in my work to encourage people not to use those terms specifically clinicians because they do exclude community members and they might and misgender people who want to access those things.
Renée Yoxon: I'm a hundred percent in agreement with you the real major reason I use the words masculizing and feminizing my work. I'm gonna be real with you is search engine optimization. Because I need people to be able to find me and those are the words. They're currently using in order to look for what they're looking for. it's not a perfect and it's not an excuse but it is the main reason I use those terms but within my courses, I'm always very clear that if you're a woman you have a woman's voice period I'm not here to say what a woman's voice and a man's voice are
Renée Yoxon: And I also want to make clear that every single person's goals are total unique. So in my courses, I'm not ever the gender police. I'm never saying do this that the other thing in order to have a woman's voice or have a feminine Voice or I'm not doing that. I'm encouraging people to listen to the people in their Community to their family members, is it to maintain your cultural accent? Is it important to you to sound like your mom if those are the places you need to be listening for when it comes to determining what qualities you want to, putting into your own voice, so's really when you go into the course. That's what it's about. I know the words feminine and masculine are problematic. And I mean, I'm a non-binary person who has had Top surgery who doesn't identify as trans masculine. I don't consider my chest to be masculine by any stretch. I totally respect and understand the issues around these words, but I do think we can't ignore the fact that
Renée Yoxon: While we're exploding gender, we do live in a society that still reads masculinity and femininity in particular ways. And so when I'm working with students,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yes.
Renée Yoxon: I always say we're doing two things. We're making a voice that gives you gender euphoria that represents your gender, but we're also creating a voice that is read by Society in a particular way and we kind of have to choose People in the world are going to hear man or woman. Unfortunately, I mean depending on what crowds you run in right? so you kind of have to balance those two things like is my voice eliciting the reaction. I want from strangers who don't know what all this is about. And is it giving me gender you for you? So you really touched on the big trouble the struggle of my work in my life?
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah. right In those two things those two sounds might actually be different for someone as well.
Renée Yoxon: Yes.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I want to really point this out for clinicians and this is like
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): this is so fresh in my heart because I've been working with a patient recently who cost some of their transitional treatments. a hundred percent for external reasons right And it's just been really?
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Just Such an upsetting place to be right. am since we're just going all over Hot button issues like I am, I don't tend to use the word detransition and my work. I tend to call it a second transition or continue transition, but one of the things I say all the time is that for some of us genders of destination and for some of us it's a journey and
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): it's sad that so frequently because of what the right-wing. Ultra conservative Community has done to co-op the transition and the narrative people who choose to continue their transition lose all their Community, frequently because trans Community is so scared to hold space for these people because of the karmates causing in the media and so
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): and I work with people all the time who want to have continued transition or change their transitional goals and thus change our treatment planning and I am like Clinicians if you ever have questions about that, I'm always happy to feel those. I am very passionate about that work and about creating a positive space and Community for that. and it is very hard on my heart when the reasons for changing transitional goals are Society and not internal motivators, right? and…
Renée Yoxon: how can you blame people and…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): so No.
Renée Yoxon: they lose their import Network and their friends and everyone they ever knew you can't blame people and that's the choice they make
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, and 100% would never I think only the individual can.
Renée Yoxon: just horrible.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): write only the individual can decide what is Is it more important to have my career? Is it more important to minimize the distress of interacting with other humans?
Renée Yoxon: That's women. Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): We're social animals. We have to have Community. Sorry totally get that but anything
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): So It's so fascinating because some people feel really euphoric with internally. And is not perceived in society the way they want to be perceived, and those two sounds might be different and giving someone the tools to be able to access both.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Is really what in my mind. vocal transition support and education You do it this really about is giving the tools to do that. with their voice
Renée Yoxon: you just cut out a little bit there a little Frozen, but I think you're back now. No worries.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Okay, great. Yes, Maltese Internet. It's not the most reliable. And so you really work to support vocal transition and I think Vocal transition is one of the lake most underrecognized and unreated vocal dysphoria is one of the most untreated on our recognize aspects of dysphoria for medical prescribers and I think that's because medical prescribers. We actually don't have any tools in our toolbox to manage it like we can't fix it for people.
Renée Yoxon: right Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): So when we can't fix it we tend to not want to think about it.
Renée Yoxon: Sure.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): did you get into Why is this work important to you? Why does it resonate with you?
Renée Yoxon: first of all, I don't think I've ever referred to it as vocal transition. Although I don't have any particular reason I think I tend to come at this from a more exploratory way. I'm more interested in helping people to discover what they already can do. So from my perspective it never really feels like we're going from point to point B where I'm just like giving them the tools to discover what they've been capable of doing all along so it feels different from transition in my mind. But how did I get into it was your question? I have been a singing teacher for a long time maybe almost 15 years now and I have a degree in jazz and I have a degree in songwriting and through those I learned about music and I was Performing Artist for a long time.
Renée Yoxon: And at a certain point I decided to focus on singing lessons to trans and disabled people those two communities because I identify as both trans and disabled and I just felt like I could bring something to those populations that other singing teachers couldn't and so I just focus my work there and then through working with those populations. I got in touch with trans organizations in my community and they told me about this lack in service provision right and asked me if I would like a
Renée Yoxon: an organization here in Montreal asked me if I would host a workshop on vocal exploration because they had had somebody come in who was a speech language pathologist and it was a cisgender person and no hate to cisgender speech language pathologist but this person that they had hired just didn't have the more expansive ideas around gender so I came in and did a workshop and it went really well and they had me come back and do it again and in French and in English and then they just kept sending me private students and then over time it just became clear that I didn't have time for singing lessons anymore. there were so many people who needed
Renée Yoxon: speechless voice alterations speech lessons. And so I just made the conscious choice to change my practice just the pivot away from singing because there are already so many amazing competent singing teachers in the world. if you want to find a singing teacher you can find that no problem, but finding someone to work on your speaking voice as a trans person. That's a little bit more challenging. So that's why I do what I do because I see that it's really needed.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): And I want to Circle back to the thing which I remember now that you mentioned it, right. I feel like one of the resources I always want in the context of referrals is for my patients who are singers to want to take testosterone,…
Renée Yoxon: mmm
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): And so I do actually have a Blog up where I bucket all my resources that I use when I'm working with those folks. But if you have any resource ads or if you take those people as clients, which I don't think you do a lot of one-on-one client work anymore, but
Renée Yoxon: No, right now, I'm not taking one-on-one clients at the moment, but I've heard this as well I do a lot tiktok live every week and invariably every week. There's somebody asking about how to maintain a good singing practice during hormone replacement therapy, especially at the beginning and I don't have a course specifically for that population either but it's on my list because there's clearly many people who want that information.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I think that should be top of the list if you're taking requests from random people you don't really know.
Renée Yoxon: I am No, I definitely am.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, one of my favorite resources for that is the key of tea. It's a website trans singer creative where it was like everything he found, during the course of his experience. And so it's a phenomenal resource, and…
Renée Yoxon: I'm going to write that down.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): they're Yeah, and then the Berlin opera did a four series master class for Trans singers. That's up on YouTube, which I also love but again, I don't have an individual to send people to which I would or a specific course, right? I have some random Glam together resources. And so that would be phenomenal. bird,…
Renée Yoxon: I'll keep it in mind.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): but yeah, and so What are like?
Renée Yoxon: Just one second. I'm gonna just post my curtain because I'm so sunny all of a sudden. Okay, yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Love that for And okay because we are talking to mostly hormone prescribers, who? Do you think hormone prescribers should kind of Point towards your resources? who are the people that it's the right fit for?
Renée Yoxon: My work is the right fit for pretty much any. Trans feminine person or trans woman who is interested in. Making her voice brighter higher quote unquote more feminine whether or not she's on hormones because as hormone replacement therapy, estrogen therapy doesn't affect the voice. It's also a good fit for Transmasculine people who are pre-t. So they want to work on masculinizing their voice before they start tea. I always suggest that people do some voice alteration work before taking tea because
Renée Yoxon: the changes that occur to the voice on T are physiological but Behavior like how we use the instrument is a big part of how the voice is created. So sometimes people will describe a sense of uneasiness when they're using their new instrument because they're using the old behaviors that don't correspond to the new instrument. So those have to be learned And so those are things that they can do with me. So whether you're before tea, pre-t or you're taking Tea voice alteration lessons or a good idea and nonetheless and I think that's something people don't think about it's very common in transfem spaces to seek out trans voice lessons, but it's really not in trans masks faces, but studies show that they seek them out and equal rates as trans women do
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, I do think a lot of clinicians don't think about voice support for people who are interested in testosterone therapy. And I think this is really important one part of informed consent is that we actually come actually Council on all of the potential treatment options and rate and you can do Voice work to change your voice and how it's perceived by society and potentially achieve some of your transition goals without testosterone. And so this is something I specifically say to people who have voice changes as part of their link goals for their treatment that this is an option right because sometimes I have this is important to all patients because this is how informed consent works but I think it's extra important when I'm working with patients who maybe
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Are really interested in voice changes and maybe Top surgery but are I don't really want facial hair and…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I'm really not excited about bottom growth. And I really don't want to be thinking about sex all the time or have an increase in my libido, And these are all things that happen with testosterone therapy and…
Renée Yoxon: right
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): so for that person doing voice work and pursuing Top surgery might be a better foot.
Renée Yoxon: Absolutely, or…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): And also
Renée Yoxon: some people who pursue testosterone therapy will then go on to do voice feminization because they wanted everything else associated with testosterone, but they don't like sounding the way they sound postee. That's also totally legit a great path.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, and I think it's a funny that you bring that up because when I'm counseling patients around all the changes that happen with testosterone, right? I distinguished the ones that will change back if they stop testosterone therapy and the ones that are permanent or semi-permanent and I call most of them permanent because there are interventions that can be done. Right and so voice I always say is permanent because always the vocal cords are thickened and unless you have surgery within them back out like that is done and…
Renée Yoxon: Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): you will never have exactly the same voice you had before you took testosterone,…
Renée Yoxon: Correct.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): but you can work with people who do vocal exploration support and rate. How you use that instrument to change the presentation and how that is heard and perceived.
Renée Yoxon: But I do like to tell people who are worried about taking testosterone because they are worried about how it will affect their singing voice that your voice changes. no matter what path you chose as you age your voice changes, if you get illness and disability can cause your voice to change no matter what it changes but I think people feel like if it changes because of an active Choice I've made then if I don't like it, it's like my fault but I try to neutralize this thing it's like It's okay to make a choice and to change, and if you have to change back or change in a different direction, that's also fine, but change is happening one way or the other.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): yes, right and the only permanent and…
Renée Yoxon: That's right.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): So I definitely am encourage vocal I don't call it vocal transitioning.
Renée Yoxon: Please call it that it's one no, no.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I'm like can't get that words out of my brain. I rate whether it's vocal transition support or voice up and gender expression worker, And however, we want to phrase it but I encourage it for all of my clients who have a different vocal expression as part of their goals and a lot of reviews who do want to take testosterone do kind of want to wait and see and what the testosterone is going to do their voice and feel see if that fits for them and…
Renée Yoxon: Sure.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Do give clinic I give my patients a little primer. That testosterone really only affects pitch and that, Society. And really codes gender and to Voice through several other parts of speaking that aren't affected by testosterone therapy. And so a lot of times people do take testosterone and I think about it was a recent publication. I want to say it was about one in four people who take testosterone and don't feel like they reach the expression that they want for their voice with testosterone therapy.
Renée Yoxon: Yeah. I would like that about…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): and so
Renée Yoxon: what you just said though about how testosterone affects pitch because my understanding was that testosterone affects the weight of the sound so you get a buzzy sound because of that thickening of the vocal folds. I don't know if you're familiar with all this is very Niche voice teacher e stuff so it's okay if you don't know but yeah,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): yeah, yeah.
Renée Yoxon: it affects the buzziness quality which we sometimes call vocal weight. And that's just because of the thickening of the vocal folds but pitch is related to the length of the vocal fold, right but length only affected if the larynx is allowed to grow so depending on when …
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): which is not
Renée Yoxon: sometimes it grows and sometimes it doesn't like depending on
Renée Yoxon: Things like age and genetics like you may or may not experience larynx growth and then resonance can be affected by testosterone. If you get a little bit of larynx growth because then your vocal tract is a slightly larger chamber, but of course resonance is also connected to where you're layering sits in your throat which you control to a certain degree as well and it's like a learned behavior as well. So there's lots of little.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah. There are a lot of little things and probably what I'm doing is a gross oversimplification for prescribing clinicians to visualize and…
Renée Yoxon: or
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): my patients to visualize and probably in maybe some of it is actually an accurate. So I love learning so the larynx growth rate you would have to be fairly Young when you started a testosterone therapy, right? You completed puberty.
Renée Yoxon: How do I actually seeing people…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): And so for
Renée Yoxon: who are in their 60s taking tea and having lots of pitch lowering? So I don't know if there's enough data out in the world on I really would like to see more data.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): probably not because we also say it's not going to affect late connective tissue. your muscles will be affected by your tendons won't but then people are like my shoes I wear a size bigger and shoes now and I wear a size bigger and gloves which handsome feet do have small muscles in them.
Renée Yoxon: fascinating
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): But it's far more like in the disconnect issues, right? And so Yeah,…
Renée Yoxon: interesting.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I mean there's so much me don't know but yeah those vocal folds stick right and response to testosterone and that I think in my untrained non-singer brain that results in what sounds like a lower pitch.
Renée Yoxon: So yeah, no, that's incorrect. it will result in a buzzing quality a thick quality, but you only get a lowering in Pitch with a lengthening of the vocal fuel because the pitch is related to how wide the waves can be right if you imagine your hands in a shoe box it only clap at the rib,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah. Yeah.
Renée Yoxon: you get a high pitch clap, but if you can clap big you get a big deep clap. So in order to get a wider wave the vocal folds just need to be longer.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah.
Renée Yoxon: It's just like a guitar string. If you imagine a violin versus a base the bigger the string the deeper the pitch can be
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): So you're into your call that vocal weight?
Renée Yoxon: No, the buzziness related to the thickness in the vocal weight,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah. it's vocally right?
Renée Yoxon: but the pitch is related to The Wolf. That's yes.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yes, I'm sorry. I was circling back to the thing that I'm calling pitch incorrectly.
Renée Yoxon: Yeah, right. Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): It's called vocal weight.
Renée Yoxon: Look away.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): That is fascinating. I've never actually heard it phrase that way and know when I have this conversation, usually it's with speechling with pathologist, which is a very different.
Renée Yoxon: Sure.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): component of vocal work and yeah, but I'm
Renée Yoxon: Vocal weight. We also call vocal fold Mass literally thicker vocal Folds.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): yeah, then I guess I keep hearing you use word the Buzzy but how do you just describe the change in the quality of sound from when someone starts testosterone to two years on it?
Renée Yoxon: So I mean in order to describe that I would have to describe all three characteristics that are the major components, So He's High versus low. So if they get some lengthening of the vocal folds,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah.
Renée Yoxon: you'll get a lower pitch. We easily here pitch like you and I can tell pitch apart from and then resonance is the next category. So a single pitch right can be so the pitch hasn't changed but the resonance is deep versus bright dark and bright and then buzziness is versus
Renée Yoxon: so the resonance hasn't changed the pitch hasn't changed. But you can tell there's a difference between that sound and What I'm doing is adducting my vocal fold so that there's a little bit more tension towards the midline and that just mechanically thickens the vocal folds, but that thickening happens when you take testosterone also and that's why you can hear a buzzy quality in anyone who's had a testosterone puberty. That makes sense.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Interesting I mean Sort of I mean also, I love that. you can hear the difference in Pitch because I am not like I can't even clap on me and
Renée Yoxon: No, if I was to go like you can tell which one is higher work one's lower,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah. Yes,…
Renée Yoxon: Yeah. There you…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I can tell.
Renée Yoxon: We're an expert already.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, yeah, so I think Yeah, really fasting maybe I should start talking about vocal weight instead of pitch. But there's kind of rate that auditory change in voices that we can hear when people have taken testosterone, but
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): and yeah, maybe there is some changes to some of the other components of how speeches gendered but not I think Oftentimes I use a similar analogy to what you used about how you use the changes that happen. And if you're still right and this is actually of The Limited research that I've seen this is some of the research that I've seen that right people's and Habitual behavioral use of their voice that they developed during their socialization period and right doesn't change when they take testosterone.
Renée Yoxon: Correct.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): And so right and so their vocal folds have thicken and they do actually have access to a Richard Lieber darker sound but they don't know how to access it.
Renée Yoxon: Correct. Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): And so
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): explaining that concept of patient's clinicians. I've gotten lost talking to my audience because I started talking to you instead. But Ray explaining that concept to patients is really important because it's gonna help them set realistic expect around their voice and their voice Journey if they testosterone and I think for me clinicians us setting realistic expectations is one of the most important things that we can do as I really don't think this work should be sent housed or centered in healthcare. I think this Lake should Here,…
Renée Yoxon: Speaking my language now.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I think this should all be available over the counter and we should have Community Educators and peer support. I recognize that changes insurance reimbursement and payment and not would need to be something that would be addressed as well. That being said and rate and that I also feel the same way about access to reproductive Healthcare these things are not Healthcare and…
Renée Yoxon: Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): they're rights for our bodies. But anyways, and it is currently housed in a healthcare system and…
Renée Yoxon: Really?
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): clinicians I really don't see our role right as
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): The people in charge I see our role as really and maybe guides on a hike and so support structures or I'm Lost and language right now. But anyways, it's our job to Really just help prepare people for what they might experience and not necessarily tell them who they are right or what they have a right to access but what they might experience if they choose to access something and I think setting up realistic expectations around voices really really important and that is part of how you do that. I explain this concept of I really like your analogy of you have a new instrument. You're still playing it the same way is maybe…
Renée Yoxon: Yeah, just yeah Behavior versus physiology.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): how you said it or something similar?
Renée Yoxon: If you learn to play the violin and I give you a base. the skills are transferable like you understand frats and strings and Boeing but you would take some time to have to learn how to use this completely different instrument.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Right and then also all of this potential. part of voice and voice interpretation by society that isn't necessarily affected by the physiology and right which is so many different things do you want to share with some of those things are for our listeners.
Renée Yoxon: What do you mean, Not going to say that question.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, I often times. It was a bad leading question and I often times think of Society uses all the different cues listeners use to gender box someone's voice.
Renée Yoxon: No.
Renée Yoxon: So these are useful things to know as well. If you were a person who was modifying your voice if you want to be perceived as a woman or a man, it's good to know what the averages are in terms of pitch and residents. So typically we consider a higher pitch to be characterizes feminine and a lower pitch to be characterize this masculine and people come into the work thinking they just need a higher Voice or a lower voice like pitches because the quality that people gravitate towards because it's The one we all know, but if you look at averages of pitch, there's a lot more overlap between men's and voices and women's voices on average than the people realize but I would like to caveat the pitches also very cultural. if you look at a CIS woman in England versus a Chinese man like they will have
Renée Yoxon: it'll be completely different from a California man and a New Zealand woman. every culture has their own averages when it comes to pitch. This is very well documented. And also there are pitch trends that happen in history. So the pitch has been lowering over the last hundred years. So this trans men women everybody's pitch just getting lower and lower for worse. I don't know what that means. So that's what when I change this work to students something. always People to do is to be your own ethnographer. I can't tell you what pitch is feminine because you need to go and find out where you live and your family and your community what is feminine for you? So keep all that in mind everything I say take with a grain of salt.
Renée Yoxon: And then there's resonance. So we tend to associate a brighter residence. So something more like this a brighter residence with femininity and we turn to associate a darker resonance something like this with masculinity and my residence is kind of in the middle a little bit.
Renée Yoxon: or middle to Bright I would say if you wanted to characterize my voice. and then there is vocal fold masks which is weight. because of what we were saying testosterone causes that buzziness we tend to associate a heavy vocal fold Mass with masculinity and a lighter one with femininity. However, there are exceptions. This one's a little less gendered because if you're thinking about something like shouting to shout in a masculine way tends to have produce a lower vocal fold mask it's closer to a yawn. So I'll just demonstrating with the lead away from my microphone something like hey, it's boomier. There's less vocal fold mask so that way more airflow can happen. Whereas a feminine yell tends to have a very high vocal fold mask resulting from twang. So a contraction of the area of a lot of sphincter and a lower air flow, which sounds like So that's the one exception when the vocal fold mask is flipped.
Renée Yoxon: for feminine and masculine. So there you go. And then if other qualities we can talk about inflection how much highs and lows there are if we talk about with lots of highs and lows that tends to be considered more feminine and if we speak in a more monotonous way that tends to be considered more masculine, but that's of course not exclusive of every age every culture is gonna be different for that one as well. So, there you go.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, yeah. These are a lot of the things I often talk about as well and I see clinicians. I see the inflection went and when thank you so much for calling out the fact that every culture and Community speaks differently And I appreciate that that is part of your coursework as which makes it more applicable and accessible and because there's nothing right and I feel like there's nothing more than the plastic surgeon who puts the same features on everyone and we don't want to do that with voice.
Renée Yoxon: No.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): either but there's a correlation between neuro spiciness and neurodiversity and gender diversity and…
Renée Yoxon: Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): definitely a lot of my patients who want a more traditionally perceived feminine Voice who have autism and
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): plan to have or notness or flat quality to their speaking pattern and so sometimes When we're having these conversations about still not feeling like their voices where they want their voice to be and their voice teacher has said it sounds like how it should sound or they feel like they've mastered some of these skills and they're still not hearing it. I think Ill and I'm not always the one trying to help them figure this out obviously because it's not my area of expertise, but I feel like what comes up sometimes is this lack of inflections right these highs and lows and so back to that. thing we were talking about originally one of the questions I often ask is Do you want to speak that way does that just putting those inflections in and that emotional quality into your speech actually feel congruent with Who you are and how you want to be heard?
Renée Yoxon: Yeah, what kind of a woman are if you're a woman with autism maybe you need to listen to other women with autism and listen to their inflection. It might not sound like your average neurotypical CIS woman on television, which is a very specific way of speaking as well,
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, yeah and then it's becomes this intersection of masking right? do you want to have the skill to your mask your voice and again to be perceived and specific certain circumstances and situations in that way. not
Renée Yoxon: there's another thing that comes up often with my autistic students, which is a volume control issue. So I don't know if you've perceived this but I have a lot of autistic students who have trouble regulating volume, so they'll speak a higher volume than maybe it just typically on average and It's funny because when you speak at a higher volume, you need more vocal fold Mass to maintain a higher volume. Right? So the thinning thing is almost impossible to get to and I had one student where we just decided that she had a cool thick Fran dressery sound and she was fine with that. we don't need to have a thin wispy little sound, because she was like if I go any quieter, I actually can't hear myself. So, we just modified the goal for her and that was fine.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): yeah, I think it's always
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I want all of gender care and I went all of healthcare to be so individualized but I think the ways in which Voice work can be individualized are so infinite and it's such a beautiful space for people to really access individualized care And that may be one of the things I would think about prescribing clinicians taking from this. Is that Feel like this is not to be down on our Allied SLP clinicians by any means and there are a lot of slps out there who are passionate about trans Voice work and who have done a ton of training and who have great skills to bring to this table.
Renée Yoxon: 100%
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): And I find that they're pretty hard to find and that it's not a standard knowledge for SLP use. It's not right.
Renée Yoxon: that's what I'm
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): It's not like Diabetes every primary care clinician in the world knows something quite a bit about diabetes management, right? I mean some of us are gonna know a lot more than others,…
Renée Yoxon: right
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): but all of us have a foundational amount of knowledge that will let us help.
Renée Yoxon: right
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Some people vocal transition work for SL.
Renée Yoxon: but they need to seek it out. there's lots of SLP programs where it's not a standard part of the program. And so they're seeking out trainings outside of that. I've had many slps take my training program and I have trained the slps at the University of Montreal. I know the people who work who are running that program and they're trying really hard to get gender reaffirming care as a major component of the program, but there's pushback sometimes as well because there's so much other material that slps have to understand right gender from encourage. Just one tiny part of that's…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): P yeah
Renée Yoxon: why I often say that slps have this qualification that I don't have but all I think about day and night it's transvoice. So it's really my specialty,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah. right and…
Renée Yoxon: .
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): it is really different athletes are trained to teach to Treat pathologies, and this is not a pathology.
Renée Yoxon: exactly
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): yeah, and then also evidence-based medicine being what it is, which I also have complex feelings about but slps do really want evidence base techniques and strategies and
Renée Yoxon: the research isn't there. Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Right that is something that is not accessible. And then also there are gonna be less comfortable moving into other pedagogies of vocal expression work because they're not treating them and so many of our community members who have been doing this without the support of the healthcare system for hundreds of years have access to those pedagogies in lake. That is something you can find when you're thinking about is trans Voice work all the time.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I'm totally had a point that I forgot.
Renée Yoxon: sorry.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): So it's okay our MLP. colleagues and I think My there's a lot of experiences I have here one. I think the more options trans people have the better. So when I'm talking about options for Voice work, I include all the options and definitely people with insurance access, working with an SLP might be one of the things they want to try first depending on…
Renée Yoxon: Yes.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): what their copay is, Because I think your course is a couple of hundred few hundred dollars and so if I mean my pays Specialists $45, so after a few sessions, I'd be price equivalent and so it just depends on what the coverage looks like for them and pricing things out and I also think you're having a Black Friday sale, which I probably won't get this up before then but
Renée Yoxon: No, but I have a scholarship program as So if price is an issue people can get on my scholarships list and it's not that long I'll get to you eventually so there are options, and I'm trying all the time to put out free resources whenever I can and
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Perfect. But yeah, so definitely I always go over all the options with many patients. I'm talking about it but I find it can be a little hard to find an SLP who has experience and I sometimes feel like This is the point. I was trying to get to know just took me 47 minutes to make is that I sometimes feel like they have a more one size fits all approach to voice.
Renée Yoxon: I mean,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): and expression
Renée Yoxon: it depends on the SLP for sure. I did have been so fortunate to me like the world's best SLP.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah. yeah, I feel like
Renée Yoxon: Have come through my training and don't have do this to be a woman do this to be a man mindset they do exist. But I have a directory of teachers, by the way, I don't know if you've seen this on my website, but I have a directory of teachers who have completed my training and there are a good handful of s. useful to
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I didn't know about the directory that is really useful. I think also for clinicians to check, if there's anyone in your area because particularly if anyone wants to see someone in person Or see someone one-on-one.
Renée Yoxon: Yes, and…
Renée Yoxon: there's direct people all over the world in the directory. So if you want somebody who specifically speaks Italian or German so they can manage the specificities of that language and many, changing the gender presentation of the voice in that language. You want somebody who speaks? Your client I don't know what you call I go to my students. They're language.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I think that's really great.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I know I call him patients little.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): And I also have complex feelings about that.
Renée Yoxon: Sure.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Welcome to Being Human. yeah, I think and yeah, I have had a little more of the one size fits all I also have I think some of your course when people are purchase your course, that's lifetime access which changing your voices are really vulnerable experience. right even…
Renée Yoxon: Yes.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): if it's like something I want and it's something I've dreamed about and it's something that's really important to me. And I know it's gonna give me Euphoria. It's still changing something that has inherently been About me for as long as I've known myself.
Renée Yoxon: there's a whole shame component built into that which is so
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): it's really vulnerable and I have to have an appointment with this. Every weekend that I have to do home.
Renée Yoxon: Shoot…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah.
Renée Yoxon: where our connection is. We've got a little bit of a delay there.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, you're back for me now, though.
Renée Yoxon: Sorry. I hope it didn't cut you off there.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): No, good. I was gonna yeah the same thing talk about it. That's exactly where I was headed.
Renée Yoxon: Yeah, so this is something that comes up a lot because there's still this pervasive idea in society that if you modify your speaking voice, you're being inauthentic in some way that your voice is some intrinsic part of who you are which I call b*******. I don't know if we can swear on this podcast, but I just don't think that's true. we can fabulous.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): We can.
Renée Yoxon: Okay, because if I was raised in the UK with exactly the same parents, I was raised in Scotland, then I would have a Scottish accent. But it's just by circumstance that I have an Ontarian accent. You know what I mean? So that's not genetic. That's not intrinsic to me. it's just
Renée Yoxon: It's just learned behavior not to say the cultural accents aren't important but they're learned. They're not inherited, and so modifying the voice if we decided it could be as neutral as changing your hair or changing your outfit, your personal style deciding to wear makeup. It doesn't have to be faking it doesn't have to be inauthentic but there are certain I don't know if you remember the Elizabeth Holmes situation like a big part of
Renée Yoxon: Her criticism was like, she's changing her voice. She's faking this voice to be taken more seriously, or to be perceived as more masculine and every time someone made a comment about that. I was like you're hurting trans people and you don't even know it's top stop talking about her voice. She was horrible for so many reasons. We don't need to go to the voice, so I don't know I'm trying one of my life missions is just to make this process something that is neutral is neutrally perceived, it can just change your voice if you want to
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): yeah, I think one of what I talk about this with a lot it's interesting because when I hear them do talks with other people sometimes, it's interesting to watch just people be like
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I would like to do this work I would like to maybe think more about how I speak and how I use my voice and how it sounds and how it's perceived. right and this is a society that functions in the capitalistic hellscape based on misogyny and…
Renée Yoxon: Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): white supremacy and there are Sounds and qualities that those parts of our culture approve of in a voice and rate and so many of us. actually code switch into those well and…
Renée Yoxon: Yes.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): let me be very careful saying coaching is something that is specific to actual and race and as a white person maybe we should come up with a different word for how we're doing that and
Renée Yoxon: But even if you look at languages I live in a bilingual Society, right so very often you'll hear someone switch from French to English and they have two completely different voices in those two different languages and that's like a common well-documented phenomenon.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Right and how I sound like in this podcast how I sound talking to my friends? My family's my CDs and how I sound when I'm on stage teaching are all different right…
Renée Yoxon: right
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): because a very frequently when I am working with a patient. I do become more of an honest, right? I have a much more staccato right to my speech. and there's not as many Tag questions. I think I even probably do use less nonverbal communication right I start embodying that somewhat of that expectation of a physician. Not fully. I've never really fully owned that space because it isn't something I'm super interested in owning, but it happens.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): somewhat unintentionally…
Renée Yoxon: interesting
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): because of what I have been socialized to believe my Society values and one of the things that's so important for me in the work I do and Is a great part of the reason I left traditional health care jobs is to be able to bring my full self to the work. I do and my full self is a queer kinky s** polyamorous person who grew up watching clueless, so there is …
Renée Yoxon: very well-rounded
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): that right and so having that voice and allowing the space for those inflections and those Tag questions and those has a patients and positives and in places where as a physician that's not well received or well respected is a very
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): interesting experience to consider right and Yeah.
Renée Yoxon: totally and as you were saying earlier, lots of people want to get into this work, I get comments all the time on tiktok. They're like, I'm sis. I do this? It's like go off King you can do whatever you want. Okay. I'm not trying to gatekeep voice alteration. It's just my target audience is trans. Just but before I really see these courses and I was just teaching privately, I would get people writing to me like I want to be taking more seriously around the office. I'm a woman with a high squeaky voice and can you teach me to be more masculine or I'm gay and I live in a country where that's not legal and it's actually threatening to my life. if I sound gay can you help me and why would I say I would never say no to anyone? I think there's no wrong reason to modify your voice. I do think there are reasons that are informed by the hetero patriarchy that we need to be aware of but I still wouldn't deny someone my services because it's rooted in that you know what I mean?
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah. Yeah, I think this is something to talk about forever. Right because it's like wait There are so many things in our society and culture that are gender for main care that aren't considered gender firming care, right like every breast augmentation. That's ever happened. and doesn't matter whether it's happening on a sister trans body and…
Renée Yoxon: Yeah.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): and rate, I think one of the things I love about being queer is that it's taught me and pushed me to examine the patriarchal values and societies and beauty standards and physical norms and things like that in a way that I feel brings a little more nuance and awareness to why I do the things that I do but it's doesn't same whatever your reasoning is. I hope you've had some time to examine it and think about it I do hope that and not everyone has that privilege or that is in that part of their journey and**** fine silk your goddamn body do you want with it?
Renée Yoxon: No. that's it. not some criticism. I get sometimes in my work is that I am reinforcing stereotypes and it's like I am even in a way I am right but trans women don't have the luxury of bucking stereotypes if they want to be taken seriously or even just move through the world with safe. in a way I am but I also come at it from a non-binary perspective where if you are interested in exploding gender and expanding gender. I'm also here to do that.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah right there and also maybe again let's give people access to different expressions in different species because this people have different expressions and…
Renée Yoxon: totally
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): different spaces. and so to deny that to trans people is just saying we are supposed to be one facet and that facet is only supposed to be our transness and that is all that we are right as just not** true. Right. No human being is one thing.
Renée Yoxon: That's the first thing I say to people when they take my chorus site we start by making a list of all the ways in…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah.
Renée Yoxon: which they already use their voice. what do you sound like when you're trying to get someone's attention or when you're sad or when you're comforting someone or when you're talking to your dog or when you're talking to your best friend, you use your voice and in a myriad of ways currently. We're just gonna harness that power.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I love that you bring that up. I'll keep an eye on time for us, too, but I think the consistency and in use and a sound that is like Eve work for someone is one of the things I sometimes see a little bit harder for people to access as well, right so clinicians and I have a lot of patients who will be generally pretty I want to say chufts because I think I've been watching British TV, but I think that actually means not happy with.
Renée Yoxon: actually craft can be both. good happy with or not happy with
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): So fairly happy with how they sound most of the time and then in certain situations situationally they will lose access to that sound oftentimes for people who want a deeper darker sound that seems to be talking to pets or talking to small children.
Renée Yoxon: yes.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Uh-huh. Right? And I feel like for people who want a brighter lighter sounds sometimes it seems to be under periods of emotional stress.
Renée Yoxon: mmm
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): that it seems to pop up a little bit more and so how do you like? What are The ways you kind of approach that for people.
Renée Yoxon: Yeah, great question. I mean I will always start by reminding a student that it's okay to have a variety of sounds in your life and that you always did and you always will have a variety sounds just because you sound unlike your target voice under certain circumstances doesn't mean you've practiced incorrectly or anything like that. So we try and Start by reassuring a student, but then the way to make some Headway in those situations is to identify what those situations are. So in the case of
Renée Yoxon: You're saying someone who wants a darker deeper sound. it might be like in a customer service situation or talking to a pet or a high stress anything that creates tension in the body will often betray that darker deeper sound. So we just practice doing that full-blown improv theater style, we will invent a scenario and try and just practice right? There's really nothing that can substitute practicing. So that's one thing just create the scenario that triggers the Betrayal of the target voice and then the second thing you can do is to create an item. okay, let me think here.
Renée Yoxon: at some kind of trigger that reminds you of your target voice and the target voice is what I will call the voice someone is aiming for in their daily life and I call the old voice they habituated voice like the one we learned through habit before as opposed to some people will say the true voice and the untrue what I just tried using neutral terms, but I'm always open to new terms if Better, so creating a trigger that sets your target voice can help for those situations in which you're not set now the ideal trigger is the breath. So if you can practice
Renée Yoxon: Taking a breath in and then speaking with your target voice that's always the best because you're always breathing and taking a breath or adjusting your posture can help to reset the target voice another one. That's also good. I have a list of in order. It's like breath is the best and then a word or a trigger phrase like Center or bright or dark. Whatever some kind of word that you remember. As you reposition your target voice to set things back in motion. And then the third thing is like an object like a ring or a piece of jewelry or even a tattoo like something you can look at and touch that reminds you to reset your target voice because also this can happen even when you're not in this situation that's high stress. You can just be going about your day and you just forget so having something that just continuously reminds you to reset your target Voice through that resetting the Habit will become deeper and deeper and great in your mind.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): I love all these tips and trust and these great clinicians. These are all the things that your patients could get access to if they were interested in checking out running vocal exploration programs online. and I will link all of your website and all your handles, at the podcast information if y'all want more and If clinicians have questions or want to reach out to you. Are you open to that?
Renée Yoxon: yeah, I'm absolutely so they can send an email to support at Renée yoxon.com if they have a lot of questions, I usually recommend just taking my training program which comes up once a year about it's a five week program and it's weekly and you can take it asynchronously. I know people are busy. So if you want to just add a training to your knowledge background, that would be what I'd recommend. But of course if it's like a one-up question, I'm happy to answer those by email.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Amazing and then when I say have you speak at the organization or institution? Is that something you do as well?
Renée Yoxon: Absolutely. Yeah, you can send an email through the same one. I just said support at Renée oxen Comm and we'll set it up sounds awesome. I love pushing the trans agenda at every possible opportunity. So
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yes, what I love this one of my favorite my family is Ultra conservative,…
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): right and they do talk about things like the gay agenda sometimes and I feel like some of the memes I see are survival or thriving right and it's really not but yeah, no, I'm like, I totally have an agenda and it's
Renée Yoxon: Yeah, me too.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): And it really would be too late. make the world a better place. okay, we're all voices are welcome and no one assumes gender because of how a Voice that would be my agenda one of them.
Renée Yoxon: a hundred percent
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): Yeah, thank you so much for your time today. I kept you a little longer than I was supposed to and
Renée Yoxon: It's my pleasure. I love chatting with you today.
Dr. Crystal Beal (they/themme): yeah, and thank you for teaching me about pitch and vocal weight. I'm gonna read look at all that later and maybe package how I talk about it very helpful.
Renée Yoxon: That thanks so much for having me on it's an absolute pleasure.